Curse

Spookii · Feb 18, 2010, 04:38 PM // 16:38

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kaleban

This is patently ridiculous and frankly offensive, I'm sick of others telling me how I should play a game. As I'm sure others share the same feelings. "Balanced" in GW's case means joining an ineffective PUG and wiping. That is NOT fun for me. In most other games, balanced means not just characters against each other, but also with the environment, such that any mix of characters has a similar chance to defeat an area. An 8 mesmer team probably could not hack UW in HM...

So instead of presuming to know how a game should be played, and basically proclaiming yourself GOD of GW, why not practice a little open mindedness? Every game goes through a cycle, and as anyone could tell you, all MMOs are notorious for their "farming" cycle which occurs once story content is done. To attempt to make the cycle an exercise in frustration would only serve to lessen a game's popularity, not increase it.

Kaleban, you're making GW sound like it's srz biz and a way of life. It's a game. There are certain rules and if ANet wants to tell you to play their game a certain way (by buffing/nerfing skills), you play that way and say thank you. If you want to Perma your way through life (while you still can), be my guest. Everyone is just raging because they can hear the ticking of the Doom clock. Work around problems, don't QQ over them. That's the entire point of a game, no? To work around certain obstacles put in place for you. I would be bored of Chutes and Ladders if there were no ladders. I played Ursan for the longest time and when they nerfed it, it didn't rock my boat. I just went on and continued to play the game that I love to play (Love the game, not the build. New t-shirt slogan, anyone?). It was even nice to be able to go back to some of my older, neglected characters. Enjoy it while it lasted, put the memories in a scrap book, and get ready to play in a new way.

I have zero problem doing HM/endgame/whatever content with friends in a balanced group. 2-3 friends. Yes, we even bring heroes along. It really isn't that hard to get a group together to do something. Unless all of your friends only have an assassin with Shadow Form. Ugly cycle. Go find new friends.

Know why PuGs suck? No one knows how to properly use their builds anymore. I used to love PuGs. Everyone goes straight for Shadow Form. I can't tell you how many newbies I've run into that on their FIRST CHARACTER are aspiring to be a PermaSin because they saw someone talking about it on a forum or saw the build on PvX. Newbies, who don't even need massive amounts of cash yet, don't even bother trying to play the game. Guild Wars has a perk (or a curse, if you look at it some ways). You don't need to be level 20 or X number of hours under your belt to wield, or even buy, a BDS/Froggy/Tormented Weapon/[Insert Fancy Item of Chocie]. You just need the cash.

I see the same problem with monks and 55s, as well. Although that's not really a problem, it's just funny.

Obviously ANet thinks Shadow Form is a problem, as they've gone through different attempts to nerf it in response to it being exploited. We are currently all sitting on our asses waiting on the next update. If ANet intended for their game to be slammed through so easily, they wouldn't even be considering the idea of getting rid of Shadow Form.

If (or when, rather) Shadow Form is nerfed, just think of it as an opportunity to play in a different way. So what if it takes you a little longer to get your leet armor? Are we really that impatient?

I personally can't say that I'd mind if they completely revamped every skill in Guild Wars. I'd like some change.

aspi · Feb 18, 2010, 04:50 PM // 16:50

Quote:

Originally Posted by Del

Sure, if you're just hellbent on finding things to whine about.

Not at all, I can't think of another thing I "whine" about on this forum. But going through the trade forums seeing the same guys over and over buying anything they can get their hands on is annoying, to me I must add. Powertraders? Maybe but where would they be without the SF farmers I wonder.

toocooltang · Feb 18, 2010, 04:53 PM // 16:53

You can do doa multiple ways. First option is with SF, the record here is about 30ish minutes. Your second option is with a terratank, I can't say for certain but I would think these runs with terra's tank about 1h-1h30 at the quickest. Both of these options represent tank'n'spank. You can obviously run something that isnt tank and spank but this tanks even longer approaching 2 hours.

Balance in guildwars would imply that all previously stated ways can complete DOA in roughly the same amount of time, which isn't true because with SF you can do it 2-4 times faster. The same is true for fow, uw, and all dungeons. Point is SF is so powerful, and good as a tank that it crushes all other builds out of play.

P.S. Henge of denravi was dead even before factions came out.

jazilla · Feb 18, 2010, 05:13 PM // 17:13

Straight from the official wiki:

Next Skill Balance - 17 December 2009

The Test Krewe has been discussing many proposed skill balance changes in preparation for the next balance update. The next skill balance update will not be released this month, but we would still like to give you a few more details of what our developers are working on, with feedback from the Test Krewe. Please keep in mind that not all of these changes may make it into the next skill balance and there is the possibility of different changes making it in, however we just wanted to give you an idea of some of the projects we’re undertaking at this time. The upcoming skill balance falls into two categories: addressing pressing issues, and tackling other issues.
Pressing Issues

* Shadow Form – Shadow Form is a formidable build, providing blanket protection against both attacks and spells. The developers and Test Krewe are taking a look at a couple of options, including reworking the skill from a fundamental level.
* Possible Changes to 600 Smite – The effects of this build on the game are less pronounced than other extreme farming builds, however it operates on the same basic premise of making a character invulnerable all of the time. The developers are looking at changes to some of the skills in this build.
* Balancing Midline Spike – Several skills have been identified as overpowered. Several of these skills have brought more damage and defense to GvG midlines than we'd like. This de-emphasizes distinctions in roles between frontline and midline characters and removes some of the versatility we've seen in midline characters in the past.
* Addressing Fast Cast Blood Spike – The Test Krewe is currently taking a look at a couple of proposals targeted to address the cornerstone of this team build.
* 4v4 Issues – We’re looking at both Illusion of Pain and Ebon Dust Aura in terms of addressing issues in the 4v4 format.

Addressing Other Issues

Again, please keep in mind that not all of these changes may make it into the next skill balance, and the changes may be different.

* Hammer Mastery – Hammer suffers from a number of issues that make it difficult to take over other Warrior weapons in PvE. For example, the combination of high adrenaline costs, slow attack rate, and battles ending relatively quickly in PvE mean that it can be hard to use skills before a battle is over and mean that being blocked feels much harsher. We’re looking at a number of approaches to address these and other issues.
* Tactics – Tactics is the least exciting Warrior attribute and primarily sees use as a secondary attribute on other classes. We’re considering several options to address the weaknesses of Tactics.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
2 months without this announced update happening. Just don't announce anything anymore. If you can't do what you say, then don't say it. If you want to help out the community, announce what our stuff in the Hall of Monuments will earn us in GW2. Do that, or start honoring your announcements.

Kaleban · Feb 18, 2010, 05:30 PM // 17:30

Quote:

Originally Posted by toocooltang

You can do doa multiple ways. First option is with SF, the record here is about 30ish minutes. Your second option is with a terratank, I can't say for certain but I would think these runs with terra's tank about 1h-1h30 at the quickest. Both of these options represent tank'n'spank. You can obviously run something that isnt tank and spank but this tanks even longer approaching 2 hours.

Balance in guildwars would imply that all previously stated ways can complete DOA in roughly the same amount of time, which isn't true because with SF you can do it 2-4 times faster. The same is true for fow, uw, and all dungeons. Point is SF is so powerful, and good as a tank that it crushes all other builds out of play.

P.S. Henge of denravi was dead even before factions came out.

So what you're saying is the problem is that one build is faster than the other, which realistically has no bearing on anyone else's gameplay unless your whole reason for playing GW is to act as a merchant bringing goods to market. Might as well speculate on Glittering Dust futures.

Using that logic though, means that these same SF QQers SHOULD have been whining about how the only builds that worked in DoA were War/Ele/Mo builds, with nary another character in sight, barring the odd BiP necro. Half the classes in the game excluded from an area.

You know what the few people who did complain about the "balance" dominance were told? Go roll a War/Ele/Mo.

Ironically, when the tables are turned, their hypocrisy is exposed, and yet they still can't see it. All the Sin players telling others to go roll a Sin are conversely being told their playstyle is wrong, imbalanced and unfair.

Personally, this isn't serious business to me, I usually only play during events now to muck about with the quests and stuff. The rest of the game has become quite boring.

I was HOPING that ANet would get their act together and fix the problem, not one of the symptoms, but my hopes were too high and they stick with what they know. The real root cause is that the game is static, and that reward/time is crazy out of whack. Fix those issues and the imbalance of things like SF would disappear. But, its obvious that both the SF detractors and the devs themselves are too closeminded and short sighted to see the real issues, so of course the nerfbat will be employed here.

Too bad really. GW as a franchise had the possibility of being great, but ANet squandered it, especially by catering to the elitist jerks who worry about their "economy of ectos." LOL.

Ralisti · Feb 18, 2010, 05:31 PM // 17:31

Quote:

Originally Posted by jazilla

2 months without this announced update happening. Just don't announce anything anymore. If you can't do what you say, then don't say it. If you want to help out the community, announce what our stuff in the Hall of Monuments will earn us in GW2. Do that, or start honoring your announcements.

agreed, but I would like both, please. If we're not going to get anything substantial in gw2 for a full Hom or a Gwamm, a lot of us will be done and move on~~ not?

Essence Snow · Feb 18, 2010, 05:33 PM // 17:33

I would like to see revamp of da Bear, Raven, or das Wolf when/if SF ends. At least pugging was actually possible for any elite area. I know they say da Bear still works but it's not the same. Being able to PUG for any area on any character at any time was imo really enjoyable. Now I have resort to a niche build character to PUG certain areas. My perma and monk have done UW, DoA, FoW, + Dungeons too many times. I'd like to be able to use my mesmer or derv from time to time. Before someone says that pugging is my problem...I enjoy pugging...I like meeting new ppl...so I don't see it as a problem. Just my opinion.

Del · Feb 18, 2010, 05:40 PM // 17:40

Quote:

Originally Posted by aspi

Not at all, I can't think of another thing I "whine" about on this forum. But going through the trade forums seeing the same guys over and over buying anything they can get their hands on is annoying, to me I must add. Powertraders? Maybe but where would they be without the SF farmers I wonder.

Without sf they'd be even richer and nothing you're bitching about would be solved.

Buns United · Feb 18, 2010, 05:57 PM // 17:57

Quote:

Originally Posted by vamp08

Wow, has it seriously been 3 months since the last major skill update? Is ANet or the Test Krewe doing...like...ANYTHING?

What 'major' skill update? Guess I must've missed that.

All the last couple of skill updates did was right a few wrongs Anet made in the past, by nerfing skills that had previously been buffed too much. And failing to do so.

But this just once again shows the incompetence of Anet, and reduces the chances anyone will buy GW2 without having second thoughts. /care

Regulus X · Feb 18, 2010, 06:19 PM // 18:19

Despite SF and 600/55 farming being destroyed, the damage is still done. All that'll be left is H/H'ing because PUGing utterly fails. Retarded players brought it upon themselves through not being properly equipped, Leroying, sucking at communication & response times, rebelling, etc... causing this general anti-PUG mentality to arise. It's the bad player's fault that the good players keep choosing to solo, or use NPCs that suck less than alot of real players. On top of that, just be honest with each other: ya'll hate on SF because ya'll haven't been doing it and the one's that have are far richer than you. It's called jealousy, y'know. I don't even PvE/Farm, yet I can tell it's the driving force behind this "Anti-SF/600/55'ing" campaign.

In conclusion, it really doesn't matter if SF's being destroyed. The damage is done anyway. Everyone probably has all their toons LOL FoWed up with Chaos Gloves and all the rest by now, and this is virtually irreversible.

Arkantos · Feb 18, 2010, 07:01 PM // 19:01

Quote:

Originally Posted by vamp08

Wow, has it seriously been 3 months since the last major skill update? Is ANet or the Test Krewe doing...like...ANYTHING?

No, it's been like 3 weeks. Also, the test krewe has absolutely nothing to do with when an update is going to be released.

MisterB · Feb 18, 2010, 07:05 PM // 19:05

The initial formation of the Test Krewe has delayed the update to Shadow Form, but that's splitting hairs a bit.

Redvex · Feb 18, 2010, 07:13 PM // 19:13

Correct me if i am wrong, but they didn't say that skill balance will happen in february?

MisterB · Feb 18, 2010, 07:22 PM // 19:22

Regina stated February was the target for the PvE skill balance.

Quote:

Our team is targeting February for the next set of skill updates. The changes previously mentioned are planned for inclusion.

http://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/User:...l#Skill_Update

Zarion Silverarrow · Feb 18, 2010, 07:34 PM // 19:34

I have to say I don't agree with the nerf.Why?only about 20% of my money comes from SF in TOPK,and i barely do it anymore,because drops are sucking.

My solution would be,remove skeleton of dhuum,make the original enemies stronger (both armor and damage) and more numorous,make nm uw like it is atm in HM,but please do not make it impossible to solo.Hard is ok for me,its fun.but impossible is not

Another thing,when they nerf SF everyone will eventually go back to 1 build for tanking or w.e

Be it Obsidian Flesh,anything,in about 2 weeks people will already have new builds,they will come out to the community and be nerfed again.THATS WHY I DONT AGREE.What if i already am using a solo build no one else does,but when they nerf sf someone makes a build similar to mine,overuses and shares it and its nerfed.

Another of my ideas is making an UW version of skills,like pve and pvp.For skills like SF,Obsidian Flesh,and all the overused farming skills.I know UW isnt the only place farmed,but this may help players and anet come to an understanding more or less.

Lastly,I personaly like SF because it is FUN.It is not fun at all in TOPK,but it is for running from outpost to outpost...i realize my ideas will require major updates and people from gw2 working more in gw1 than gw2,but they are just old ideas...

Pardon english...am from puerto rico

MisterB · Feb 18, 2010, 07:40 PM // 19:40

Skeletons of Dhuum ≠ impossible to solo UW.

It's too late to discuss ideas for changing Shadow Form. They have probably changed it and tested it by now, or are in the final testing stage with QA to look for bugs.

No, splitting skills again for one single instance is ... unnecessary.

Tenebrae · Feb 18, 2010, 08:07 PM // 20:07

Still here saying same stuff ? lol.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kaleban

So what you're saying is the problem is that one build is faster than the other, which realistically has no bearing on anyone else's gameplay unless your whole reason for playing GW is to act as a merchant bringing goods to market.

Yeah , thats the Justice and balance measure that anyone in the world should use "if it doesnt affect me , its fine" . So Killing ppl for example is fine as long as you dont know any of them right ? pfff.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kaleban

Using that logic though, means that these same SF QQers SHOULD have been whining about how the only builds that worked in DoA were War/Ele/Mo builds, with nary another character in sight, barring the odd BiP necro. Half the classes in the game excluded from an area.

Overexxagerate ftw. Is not a matter of ONE area and you know it, so cut the BS.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kaleban

Ironically, when the tables are turned, their hypocrisy is exposed, and yet they still can't see it. All the Sin players telling others to go roll a Sin are conversely being told their playstyle is wrong, imbalanced and unfair.

Funny you call ppl names when you are a PRIMMARY ASSASSIN . Like we all know , ppl that defend SF are Farmers . Just that , only Farmers will QQ about SF rework.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kaleban

bla bla bla ...... The real root cause is that the game is static, and that reward/time is crazy out of whack. Fix those issues and the imbalance of things like SF would disappear. But, its obvious that both the SF detractors and the devs themselves are too closeminded and short sighted to see the real issues, so of course the nerfbat will be employed here.

So the answer is "Fix the entire game instead of 1 skill" yeah ... pretty clever. You are so far from reality that i think you are playing a diff GW version.
- Root problems : Not going to be fixed , EVER.
- AI and Skill problems : Too much work only for 1 stupid broken skill combo.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kaleban

Too bad really. GW as a franchise had the possibility of being great, but ANet squandered it, especially by catering to the elitist jerks who worry about their "economy of ectos." LOL.

Funny mister Name caller , mister Primary Assassin , mister farmer , calling the non-farmers jerks who worry about their "economy of ectos" ... and even more funnier , you have the guts to call them hypocrite when you come here saying some worthless stuff hoping for us to not notice that you are just another SF farmer QQer about SF being reworked.

Seriously SF =\= Farming. Farming will NOT be stopped by changing current SF functionality. Is not about that and i want to believe that deep inside you know it because if you didnt realise it so far ( 5X pages lol ) you should leave this forum and quit the game.

Now that you seem to have answers for everyone , answer this :
- WHY should an perma sin or a team composed 80% by them be able to clear ANY game content in AT LEAST 3x less time than a balanced group ?

The answer must be SOMETHING so wrong and that ONLY affects sins to justify that serious advantage , go ahead and answer something so we can talk about real stuff and not root "issues" that arent going to be solved.

Kaleban · Feb 18, 2010, 08:43 PM // 20:43

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tenebrae

Now that you seem to have answers for everyone , answer this :
- WHY should an perma sin or a team composed 80% by them be able to clear ANY game content in AT LEAST 3x less time than a balanced group ?

Why should a balanced group be able to do the same compared to a group composed of 8 Mesmers, or 6 Rangers and 2 Eles, or any combination thereof?

When you can explain to me why the game should only cater to groups composed of Warriors, Elementalists, Monks and the occasional Necromancer, while marginalizing all the other professions and their hundreds of skills, then perhaps you'll understand that the core problem of GW is the balance of the areas, and not the classes.

Nerfing SF to hell and back will not fix the game. So any time spent on that will be futile. I repeat Tenebrae, nerfing SF will not fix the problem. It will only transfer the problem to some other class/skill combination because there are too many permutations for ANet to balance them ALL.

Its much simpler and elegant to balance the areas themselves, adding in some random skills to mobs, AND less time consuming in the long run, instead of CONSTANTLY re-working skills that rely on specific conditions to be met.

Again, ask yourself why SF is not widely used in PvP? Because the environment changes, the "mobs" you face (other players) adapt and change, hence its impossible to always rely on the same mechanic. You'd THINK that ANet would realize this simple point, and adjust PvE accordingly. Heck, even Blizzard's old Diablo 2 did this with things like random monster immunities, and random monster mob spawns at higher difficulties.

Oh, and just because my profile lists A/ doesn't mean all I do is farm or use SF all the time. That you assume so is a great example of the logical process you employ, and why you are always wrong about everything.

The tl;dr version for Tenebrae, "fixing" SF will not fix the game. The problem will transfer to a new class/skill, and you'll have the same issue FOREVER, until you fix the root cause. Being an advocate of nerfing SF is the easy, lazy way out.

Anonymous IXl · Feb 18, 2010, 08:49 PM // 20:49

I hope this update happens later this evening *Crosses fingers*

jazilla · Feb 18, 2010, 09:13 PM // 21:13

i remember a time when even supposed, "balance" even hurt other classes. 4/5 man sorrow's furnace runs anyone?